working4christ2 << working4christ2

wanner47 · #1 Dec 7, '09, 1:04 pm

Hi all,

I'm corresponding with a Fundamentalist who has some serious issues with the Church. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to really go in-depth right now. I told him I'd post his last e-mail here and send him the link to the thread.

The article he's referring to is this one: *
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp

Thanks! He goes by the name of "Marcus Antony."

Quote:

Joanna,
I received the article you sent in the hopes of convincing me that I was mistaken in believing Catholicism has not historically taught that outside the "RCC", no one can be saved. *As the article said:

"Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus does not mean that only faithful Roman Catholics can be saved. The Church has never taught that.

My dear woman, that is a bold-faced lie. *How can I make you understand that you are being deceived? *You stated that the article would clear up any misconceptions about Vatican 1, but no where in the artice do they even mention Vatican 1. As a matter of fact, there are multitudes of Catholics worldwide who actually agree with ME, in that they are able to understand and take at face value the content and import of what was being said in Catholicism before 1900. *For example, in less than 30 seconds on Google, I found the following by a Monsingnor---as opposed to the priest in your article which says the RCC has "never" taught no salvation outside the church:

*"The dogma that there is no salvation outside the true Church of Jesus Christ is a part, and an important part, of that supernatural message which we call the divine public revelation."*

As for the clear-cut statements that anyone with a logical brain can conclude that salvation outside the church was an impossibility according to the big-wigs--- see the following. *Notice that they NO WHERE make any exceptions to what they are stating....which is precisely what modern Catholicism attempts to do, but fails miserably.

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 - 590): "Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. ...Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. ...Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. ...[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church." (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604): "Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved." (Moralia)

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): "With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved." (Denzinger 423)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): "We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ...For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'" (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 - 1846): "It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved." (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): "It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood." (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 - 1903): "This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church." (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

"He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God." (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 - 1914): "It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation." (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922): "Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved." (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): "The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. ...Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors." (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 - 1958): "By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth." (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)

continued below...

wanner47 · #2 Dec 7, '09, 1:06 pm

Quote:

Then, as though to set this constant teaching of the Fathers, Doctors and Popes "in concrete," so to speak, we have the following definitions from the Solemn Magisterium of the Church:

Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215): "One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside which no one at all is saved..."

Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 - 1445): "[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."*

So you see, it is only MODERN Roman Catholicism which has now tried to retract and whitewash the past by REINVENTING history with THEE most lame excuses I have ever read, because they are in fact, ashamed that they were ever said. *As a result, we can only laugh at the vain attempts of damage-control experts telling us, "This is what they REALLY meant." *Do you have children? *Do you want them to understand what YOU tell them? *Then why may not the people from the past have the same liberty? *WHy also, may God not also have the same liberty when He tells us in no less than 5 places that "ALL have sinned".......but the RCC comes along and tells us Mary was an exception????? * The Lord certainly wasted His time telling us THAT, since there isn't one Catholic on planet Earth who believes Him!!*

*Let no man deceive you through vain words" *(Eph 5:6).

Thruxton · #3 Dec 7, '09, 1:29 pm

Insofar as your protestant correspondent argues that the Church has always taught "No salvation outside the Church", he is correct, and you are wrong (if you are arguing that the Church hasn't).

MarcoPolo · #4 Dec 7, '09, 1:49 pm

The problem with your friend posting those quotes of Popes is this: Not one of those quotes is accompanied by an exhaustive list of all the possible ways to be united with the Catholic Church.

It remains true that there is no salvation outside the Church. What your friend does not understand is that it is possible to be saved in an exceptional and extenuating way outside of formal membership in the Church. The theology is similar to a baptism of desire in which the grace of baptism is given someone who has not formally received baptism, because God is not bound by His sacraments. At the end of the day, anyone who is saved IS saved through the Church, whether that person is a formal and aware member, or whether that person has followed the dictates of his heart as best he can and has united himself with the One Church in an extenuating way.

This understanding is as old as those in the Old Covenant outside of the "chosen people" the Israelites who were considered in the friendship of God. In the New Covenant, even St. Augustine in the 4th/5th century understood this.

unacanta · #5 Dec 7, '09, 2:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcoPolo

The problem with your friend posting those quotes of Popes is this: Not one of those quotes is accompanied by an exhaustive list of all the possible ways to be united with the Catholic Church.

It remains true that there is no salvation outside the Church. What your friend does not understand is that it is possible to be saved in an exceptional and extenuating way outside of formal membership in the Church. The theology is similar to a baptism of desire in which the grace of baptism is given someone who has not formally received baptism, because God is not bound by His sacraments. At the end of the day, anyone who is saved IS saved through the Church, whether that person is a formal and aware member, or whether that person has followed the dictates of his heart as best he can and has united himself with the One Church in an extenuating way.

This understanding is as old as those in the Old Covenant outside of the "chosen people" the Israelites who were considered in the friendship of God. In the New Covenant, even St. Augustine in the 4th/5th century understood this.

Nice twist but lame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcoPolo

It remains true that there is no salvation outside the Church
.

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): "We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ...For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'" (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

There is nothing in those quoted Encyclicals that state "it is possible to be saved in an exceptional and extenuating way outside of formal membership in the Church"

RCC teaching dictates there is no salvation outside of the Church...that is what is stated and believed.

Erich · #6 Dec 7, '09, 2:36 pm

The Church also teaches (emphases mine):

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church—for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body—here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270—do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276So, yes, it is possible to be saved in an exceptional and extenuating way outside of formal membership in the Catholic Church.

Randy Carson · #7 Dec 7, '09, 3:35 pm

Marc Antony-

If you're following this thread, I recommend you read the following:

The Necessity of Being Catholic
by James Akin
http://www.chnetwork.org/journals/nesschurch/ness_7.htm

Odell · #8 Dec 7, '09, 4:01 pm

Do you believe or have ever said there is no salvation apart from faith in Christ? If you have don't try to twist it into allowing infants and children or mentialy handicapped salvation. You have said it its what you teach without faith no salvation. If you catch on you will see how ridiculous your argument is. You will understand there are norms and then there is what ever God wants to do he will do. We take what the popes have said with what the church has always thought not just one thing. Just like your faith argument

one more thing I bet you would say the church is the body christ do you think there is any salvation outside of the body of christ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by unacanta

Nice twist but lame.

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): "We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ...For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'" (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

There is nothing in those quoted Encyclicals that state "it is possible to be saved in an exceptional and extenuating way outside of formal membership in the Church"

RCC teaching dictates there is no salvation outside of the Church...that is what is stated and believed.

Odell · #9 Dec 7, '09, 4:24 pm

Also its not as if God condemns people to hell because they are outside the Church or for moral choices ext. It is as if there incapable of seeing God seeing Gods way there incapable of the beatific vision. Remember when we are with God we will know all see all. Well Christ gave us a Church so we would know the answers the Church the fullness of truth. There is no salvation if we are incaple of seeing Gods ways. That being said God does not condemn those who earnestly seek him. Those who truly desire the truth. All the church teaches is that she is where to find it.

diggerdomer · #10 Dec 7, '09, 9:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by unacanta

RCC teaching dictates there is no salvation outside of the Church...that is what is stated and believed.

As long as that statement is correctly interpreted by what the Church teaches; see CCC 846-848:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#III

tjm190 · #11 Dec 8, '09, 12:32 am

I'm out of touch with what we 'have to' and don't 'have to believe- are we required to accept every declaration by every Pope?

CouldHaveBeen · #12 Dec 8, '09, 4:22 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by diggerdomer

As long as that statement is correctly interpreted by what the Church teaches; see CCC 846-848:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#III

I'm not Catholic. I'm a Christian. I do not profess to know the answer to any of these questions. I only know what Christ teaches us in his Holy Word.

John 14:2 "In my Father's house there are many mansions: If it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

I don't know how much plainer it can get, folks.

MarcoPolo · #13 Dec 8, '09, 7:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjm190

I'm out of touch with what we 'have to' and don't 'have to believe- are we required to accept every declaration by every Pope?

You should accept any declaration by a Pope when he speaks ex cathedra on a matter of faith or morals. This is outlined at Vatican I, Session IV, Chapter 4, paragraph 9. You should also exercise proper respect and humility for his teachings even when not spoken ex cathedra. The same goes for teachings of the Magisterium (which is the bishops in union with the Pope through time) that teaches consistently and definitively on faith or morals.

If you would like to know one issue at a time, check the Catechism index. The language will be strong for matters of doctrine, stating something like "the Church has always taught" or "has defined" or such.

If you are still uncertain, I recommend getting the book Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, which is used to teach priests in the seminaries, and doctrines are given a "de fide" label if they are of the highest level of dogma.

MarcoPolo · #14 Dec 8, '09, 7:07 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CouldHaveBeen

John 14:2 "In my Father's house there are many mansions: If it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

I don't know how much plainer it can get, folks.

I don't follow what you mean by these verses in this thread. What is the ultimate of plainly obvious here? You understand "many mansions" to be "many Protestant denominations"?

unacanta · #15 Dec 11, '09, 7:33 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcoPolo

You should accept any declaration by a Pope when he speaks ex cathedra on a matter of faith or morals. This is outlined at Vatican I, Session IV, Chapter 4, paragraph 9. You should also exercise proper respect and humility for his teachings even when not spoken ex cathedra. The same goes for teachings of the Magisterium (which is the bishops in union with the Pope through time) that teaches consistently and definitively on faith or morals.

If you would like to know one issue at a time, check the Catechism index. The language will be strong for matters of doctrine, stating something like "the Church has always taught" or "has defined" or such.

If you are still uncertain, I recommend getting the book Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, which is used to teach priests in the seminaries, and doctrines are given a "de fide" label if they are of the highest level of dogma.

I have to admit, MarcoPolo is correct when he states:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcoPolo

You should accept any declaration by a Pope when he speaks ex cathedra on a matter of faith or morals

I for one, am not RCC, so I don't accept things declared by Popes. However, I also state that a RCC member must believe and place their faith in RCC teachings else they are not abiding in the Faith.

I am assuming in the following quotes these Popes were speaking "ex cathedra" on the matter of faith which states there is no salvation outside of the church.

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): "We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ...For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'" (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): "It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood." (Denzinger 1647)

These words have clear meaning and must be understood for what one can derive from their meaning as define by our understanding of words. Now of course if both Pope Pius IX and Pope Leo XII were not teaching and speaking in "ex cathedra" then we can say, sorry Mr. Pope, but you were wrong in this matter and it is not binding upon my conscience as a Christian.

Blessings,
Len

working4christ2 << working4christ2

Sunday, September 29, 2013

A Protestant's Issues with "No Salvation Outside the Church" working4christ2

No comments:

Post a Comment